Being Wrong In Three Acts

Being wrong hurts.  It cuts the the core of who we are and what we believe.  No one is born loving being wrong. But, can being wrong make you better?

​In this three part series, Jane and Mark share stories about being wrong and how learning to embrace being wrong can open up huge growth for you, both as dog breeder and a person.

Introduction - Why It Hurts So Bad To Be Wrong

​Why is it so threatening to realize that you might have been wrong about something?  Turns out there's an evolutionary basis for this. Plot spoiler: that evolutionary strategy was awesome in the stone ages, but maybe not so much now.

TRANSCRIPT (introduction)

Jane Messineo Lindquist: I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

Mark Lindquist: And I'm Mark Lindquist.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And this is.

Mark Lindquist: Madcap Radio.
 
Hi, Jane.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: How are you?

Mark Lindquist: Good. How are you?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: So this is our inaugural podcast, baby. Talking to my husband, not my baby.

I would like to talk about being wrong.

Mark Lindquist: Well, that's about time.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: No, not wrong with you honey, I'm never wrong with you. This is in life about being wrong.

Mark Lindquist: Okay. Mm hmm. In that case, I stand corrected.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: I want to start the conversation with talking about what does it take to be a great dog breeder? Because that's what we always aspire to do, is help people be great dog breeders. So, honey, what do you think it takes to be a great dog breeder?

Mark Lindquist: Oh, geez, is that. I wasn't ready for that. I ....

Jane Messineo Lindquist: wasn’t ready for that one

Mark Lindquist: Oh, man. A lot of a lot of patience.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Fortunately, I have a handy answer. Ready? I happen to have the answer. Actually, what makes a good dog breeder to me is no different than what makes you great at anything. Which is three things. First is knowledge, right? You have to know how to do it. You got to know how to fly the plane. Right, honey? My husband is a retired airline pilot, so we use a lot of airline pilot comparisons.

Mark Lindquist: That's because it's the only thing I understand.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Mm hmm. Well, thank God you just stood it. Well, it would have been bad if you didn't. So, you know, you need knowledge. You need to know how to do it. But then you need experience to transform the knowledge into competency. Because just knowing, you know, book smarts doesn't do you any good. You have to do it.

Mark Lindquist: True.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: But just doing something again and again does not make you good at it unless, and this is the big third one that we're going to be talking about, you have the intellectual humility to learn from your experience, and especially when that new experience conflicts with what you think you already know, i.e. you find out that you were wrong about something.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: So without any doubt, I mean, we can agree, right? The third one is the hardest one.

Mark Lindquist: Oh, absolutely. Right. Without a doubt.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Without a doubt. Because nobody likes to be wrong. Why do you think we don't really like to be wrong?

Mark Lindquist: It's humiliating.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: It's humiliating, right?

Mark Lindquist: Well, wrong doesn't win. Mm hmm. I mean, on the outward view, wrong doesn't win. Right. Wrong. It's failure. There's a lot of things that go along with being wrong that aren't pleasant. Mm hmm.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And it's interesting, because there's actually an evolutionary basis to this. Our sort of evolutionary brain job is to make order out of chaos. So we create these stories, and we will fight very hard any information that conflicts with the story and people form tribes around stories. I mean, not just tribes like people that didn't live in suburbia tribes, but even on the Internet, you'll hear people say, well, that's not my tribe or my tribe is this or that.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And people, you know, they they have these stories. And and when information conflicts with that, it's really almost physically violent to to the people to have to admit that they were wrong.

Mark Lindquist: I'm all ears.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: You're all ears. I mean, it's deep in our DNA. In fact, they're they actually did studies on people who were proven wrong, like cults that were proven wrong. Like there was this one cult that believed that spaceships were going to come and take them away, and everybody else on the earth was going to perish. And the the date happened.

And this did not happen, obviously, because we're making this podcast from the US, not from Mars. So but then when it didn't happen, you think, what, that everybody's going to be like, well, that was a crock. I'm going home by that. Well, that was wrong. We were wrong about that. No way. That is not what happened. That is not what happened.

They rewrote the facts to coincide with our story and they said, Oh, well, the reason it didn't happen is because we prayed hard. And that's that's why the spaceships didn't come. But they've studied this phenomenon. And the question is why is it so persistent for humans to believe things that just aren't true? And the answer is that there is an evolutionary advantage to irrational belief when it when it connects you to a tribe, because they found in societies where, you know, people are still fighting like tooth and nail or were fighting tooth and nail just for survival against each other, that the societies that held irrational beliefs, even in the face of facts, were better able to defend because they would defend something completely irrational right to the death. And it would it would defend their tribe. So their tribe had an evolutionary advantage. So that's great if you're living, you know, in the jungle and literally fighting tooth and nail with the neighboring tribe for food. But in modern society, where we're technology and information driven, that is kind of the kiss of death to be that way.

I mean, kiss of death, if you want to be good at anything.

This is why I'm starting with this for our podcast, because we are doing that breeder course From Newborn to New Home, which is following what we do with the litter from birth to placement. And there's a couple things in there that are different from what we did in Puppy Culture. I mean, we've evolved some, some things. And I think, you know, we have to tell a little bit of the back story about why we changed things.

And also to put it out there that changing the way you do things is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength. It's a sign that you're able to learn from your experience and improve. And we are always improving. That is definitely our mantra.

Mark Lindquist: Well then why call it wrong?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, I mean, I put out wrong because again, I want people to feel that in their soul, like, ooh, no, I don't like to be wrong. No, I'm wrong because that that's like you have to have a different conditioned emotional response to being wrong. Like right now your natural genetic conditioned emotional. It's not even conditioned. It's your emotional response.

It's not conditioned to being wrong is going to be very negative because if it's threatening your place in the tribe when you're wrong, when you're wrong, when your tribe is wrong, that that is cataclysmic on a very cellular level for people. But the evolved person has a conditioned emotional response to being wrong, of excitement, of saying, Oh, this could be my opportunity for growth.

In fact, that's my only opportunity for growth is when I'm doing something and somebody comes up with another way to do it and I see, Oh, I might be wrong about the way I'm doing something. The evolved person is excited.

Mark Lindquist: Well, that's that is I would assume, a learned behavior over time.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Exactly. Which is why I'm saying at Puppy Culture, I feel like our focus has switched from specifically like this is the way you do things to this is how you think about things and this is how you're able to assimilate the information that's in front of you because that is what makes you a great breeder or a great anything.

Mark Lindquist: Yeah. Goes throughout life.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Throughout life.

Mark Lindquist: All right. I'm excited. What's on the list? What are the three things?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: I think we should call this being wrong in three acts. Okay, okay.

Mark Lindquist: Continue.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act one, low birth weight puppies.

Mark Lindquist: Okay. I don't know what being wrong and low birth weight puppies has to do with anything, but.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, it all shall be revealed shortly.

Mark Lindquist: All right.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act Two Food Wars.

Mark Lindquist: Okay.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act three early off premises. socialization.

Mark Lindquist: Well, well, yeah, I know that one. Well, that's exciting. I'm looking forward to this.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Okay.

Mark Lindquist: Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. I might be wrong. A play on words.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Oh, good. one, honey. Just went right over my head.

Mark Lindquist: Oh.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Okay. Ready for act one?

Mark Lindquist: Sure. Okay.

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Act One: Low Birth Weight Puppies

How our "stories" can blind us to what's before our eyes and potentially keep us from learning something new.

TRANSCRIPT (Act One)

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act One Low Birth Weight Puppies. So the first one is Sid, our tiny baby puppy. Remember the tiny puppy? Tiny Sid.

Mark Lindquist: Who is now.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Scarlett.

Mark Lindquist: Scarlett.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: So Sid was born. She was three and a half ounces, I think. I think she was three and a half ounces.

Mark Lindquist: If that

Jane Messineo Lindquist: If that and our normal is 8 to 12, I would say eight, eight and a half to 12 ounces. So she was just tiny, tiny, tiny. And, you know, she came out and she suckled right away, which for us is a threshold.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right, that they have to nurse. They have to want to nurse. You know, people kept asking me, is she going to make it? Of course, you know, Facebook, everybody,

Mark Lindquist: Of course

Jane Messineo Lindquist: The little one, I mean, yeah, it's heartbreaking.

Mark Lindquist: And why not

Jane Messineo Lindquist: and why not? And I kept saying, I don't know. You know, there's I kept saying, not only don't I know, I said there's no way to know.

There's no way to know. But she's nursing so that she's crossed that she's crossed that threshold she's nursing. But I don't know. And then, you know, the days went by and she did okay. We had some issues with her getting cold. That was a problem. She would get cold because of her body size was so little and probably also blood sugar was, you know, more of an issue because of the small body size.

So, you know, I did make sure that she, I defended her, made sure she got a good place on the teat. I provided an extra heat source for her, so I always made sure she was snuggled into a warm neck warmer. Velvet would be kind of upset by her sometimes. And, you know, a lot of breeders will say, you know, mother knows best, it's nature.

If she's rejecting it. But, you know, here's the thing about that, is that many times the dam will be rejecting a puppy just because it's a little cold or a little, the body temperature is a little bit lower, even if it's not totally chilled or the blood sugar might not be quite right. And these are things that are really there's nothing inherently wrong with a puppy.

It's just that the small body size, it chilled easier. So, you know, I was working hard to keep her warm and then but it was really still from time to time upsetting to velvet. So I tried to sneak her out of the box. That didn't work because Velvet knew she was missing and she went nuts. So, you know, it was kind of a catch 22.

Darned if you do and darned if you don't. And I will be honest, it was getting to the point for Mark and I where it was so upsetting and disruptive to Velvet and the rest of the litter that we were worried that the rest of the puppies and Velvet were suffering. And we, you know, I was right on the edge of just like I just don't even know this puppy's so tiny.

Is she going to make it? And it's upsetting everyone. And maybe we're doing the wrong thing to keep her alive, because she also was scrawny and just terrible looking and, you know, but she was nursing. And then right after that, she sort of turned a corner. I don't know if you remember that, honey, but she sort of turned a corner and she just started gaining and doing a lot better.

And Velvet settled down.

Mark Lindquist: Yeah.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: You know, but I still was sort of in the dark about if she was going to make it and if she did make it. You know, more specifically, was she going to be normal? Was she going to be neurologically normal? I mean, what what were we looking at here with this puppy? What kind of possible defects? You know, I just I didn't know.

But she moved normally. She nursed normally. She was strong. So there we were. So now comes my part about the story and my story and how my story almost kept me from learning something. So we put up pictures of her all the time. Of course, every she had a whole following and somebody said, isn’t her head, abnormally large?

And I very reflexively said, No, no. Bull terriers have big heads and big heads. That's how they look. And you know, it's true. Bull terriers do have big heads in comparison to their bodies. And in fact, there's a great article by Winky Mackay-Smith on Type in the Bull Terrier, where she specifically talks about it and says It's one of the things that artists tend to get wrong and judges, too, when they're judging or drawing bull terriers is proportionately the head is large.

It's what gives them that. They almost look like they're going to tip over onto their heads. Yeah, they do. They almost look like, you know, those fish eye things when you're looking through it in the heads really big and the bodies is little. I mean, that's, you know, not that extreme, but that's sort of the effect. It's the head is big.

But here's the thing that puppy, the head was really big and the body was really scrawny. But I just you know, I had this strong thing in my head, almost reflexive, like, no, no, no, no, no, no. The head supposed to be big because that's my tribe, right? I'm a bull terrier fancier and I know. And you don't know when the head's big and supposed to be big.

And I just even though at the time I remember looking at it and thinking, yeah, her head is big, my might just knee jerk was no know that that's normal. But then this woman, Patty, Brill Harbison, who's very smart, wrote in and said, oh, no, that's IUGR It's normal. And in fact, it's asymmetrical. IUGR She's going to be fine.

So overall. So of course, I'm like, well, what the heck is IUGR and what's going on? So IUGR is intrauterine growth restriction. And what it means is that the animal, human or puppy somehow had growth restriction in utero. And there's a lot of reasons it can happen. But basically there's asymmetrical and symmetrical. Symmetrical is where the puppy is born proportionately small.

It's like a perfect little puppy, but it's just small. And then you have asymmetrical where the puppy is born and it's a little bit of a Frankenstein puppy. It has a ginormous head and a scrawny little body with no subcutaneous fat. It almost looks like wasted away like a little old man. And, you know, so those puppies, those asymmetrical puppies really are not as attractive.

The little tiny ones look nicer. But here's the crazy thing. When it's symmetrical. So those good looking little tiny ones, that means it happened probably in the first half of the pregnancy. And the prognosis is actually worse for those puppies, ironically, because in the first half of the pregnancy is when the the neural tube is being formed. And that is when you get profound birth defects.

And if if if there's any growth restriction during that time for any reason, it can have profound effects developmentally and neurologically on the puppy, because fundamentally that whole system is being formed then in fact, with certain kinds of defects in humans, like thalidomide, the thalidomide babies, the that that it was a drug that they gave to women that just, you know, caused horrible defects with thalidomide babies.

They can actually tell exactly when the exposure was by the defect. They actually have like a a chart. So you can say, what if it's legs, it happened at this time because each of these things, it's a critical period for the formation of each of these things. And if anything happens, any growth restriction, any toxins, it will affect profoundly for the rest of the life.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: The animal, as opposed to when it happens in the second half, the fundamental embryo has been formed. So now what happens is the puppy can go to what we call brain sparing strategy. So the body basically is wasted at the expense of the brain. So so the puppy will develop neurologically normal or the baby because it's the same thing in humans.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: So when you have that puppy that's born that just looks like, again, a Frankenstein puppy, scrawny little body, big head, that actually is a good indicator because it means that probably neurologically that puppy has a better chance of growing up normally. So you cute little puppies with all the, you know, regular chubby little tiny puppy, that puppy not is not as good a chance of living.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: So, you know, now I could say to people, hey, you know what? Actually, I think her chances are pretty good. And in fact, she's doing great right now. She's already got Barn Hunt titles. You know, she's been to some dog shows.

Mark Lindquist: And. Were you wrong?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Yeah. Was I wrong? Was I wrong and was my story ever so strong that even as my eyes were seeing it and my brain was even registering like, yeah, no, that puppy doesn't look good. My mouth or fingers were typing. No, no, that's normal. That's not because. Because this is my story. My story is that my bull terriers have big heads.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: What do you think about that, honey? Mm hmm.

Mark Lindquist: I mean, I understand what you're saying. Was this public, everybody saw your response, and somebody had the courage to step up and say, actually, you're wrong. Yes, that's what it is.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Yeah, well, she. Yeah, she didn't say, well, you're wrong. She said, this is what this is. And and I and I really.

Mark Lindquist: She didn’t say verbally you're wrong. But she says, no, you're wrong.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. And again, that's, you know, it's in a public forum and you're like, whoa, you know? But for me, I think here's the thing. Once you take that step to saying when someone puts out something that shows me that I actually am wrong for me, now that I have this mindset of being wrong is growth.

I'm like, Wow, Patty, thank you. That's amazing. I did not know that. So that now becomes, for me, a position of strength.

Mark Lindquist: Because you a little bit of freedom, I guess, too, how you don’t have to worry about being right all the time.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: You don't have to. Well, it you know, because being listen, anybody who comes and tells you I'm right all the time, this is the way it is and you just do what I do and what I do is the right thing. Run from that person because they don't know what they're talking about. Can't be no, it's just not because if you're never, you know, listen, the world is growing.

Knowledge grows every day. We know more every day. So so that was our little puppy story that we learned a lot about.

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Act Two: Food Wars

Nothing forms strongly-defended tribes better than food ideology.  But what if you learned something new that made the picture bigger and changed the considerations? Would you be willing to challenge your food tribe's assumptions?

TRANSCRIPT (ACT Two)

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act Two Food Wars. The second one, which does somewhat relate to what we did in Puppy Culture, is feeding weaning. And, you know, I didn't go heavy into animal husbandry like actual weaning practices in Puppy Culture but I, you know, I put in what we do and we always started a certain way and it was always it was never on to anything but meat, right?

Milk and then venison. And even with our dogs, we really don't give them carbohydrates. We didn't at all because we feed raw. But, you know, I'm always looking at studies of gut biome and feeding practices. Now, let me just take a step back and say gut biome. So your intestinal flora, what lives in your intestines, in your gut?

It's like this is unique to you as a fingerprint. In fact, in some places they're starting to use gut biome, in forensics, in criminal forensics. They can actually use it to identify people like. Like a DNA. Hmm. Yeah. It's fascinating. And your gut biome is determined to some extent prenatally, but also there's a socialization window, so to speak, for your gut biome.

So it's right in the beginning of life for humans and for for dogs. So the more diversity you get in the beginning of life in your gut biome, the healthier you'll be. That is well-established that the more diverse your gut biome is, the healthier you are. So our goal as breeders when we're weaning is always to get as much diversity and balancing, you know, not making the puppy sick.

So, you know, you just have to add one thing at a time. We try and do something new every day and get as diverse a gut biome going as possible. Well, I was reading a very good study on a comparison of gut biome between kibble fed dogs and raw fed dogs. They gave a chart, a scatterplot chart of the gut biome.

What was in the gut biome of the the raw versus kibble fed. And predictably, the raw fed dogs had tremendously more in diversity in their gut biome than the Kibble fed dogs. The Kibble fed dogs only had a few dots on the on the scatterplot chart, whereas the raw fed dogs had a tremendous amount. But here's the important thing that I learned when I looked at that chart.

Although the Kibble fed dogs had a very non-diverse gut biome, there were some dots, you know, some things that they had in their gut biome that the raw fed dogs did not have. So to truly diversify as much as possible, what this says to me, adding a little carbohydrates, you know, I mean, probably is a good idea.

Mark Lindquist: How do you come up with carbohydrates is that equal to kibble?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Yeah. And one said, well, because that's what we don't put in raw. We have no we were no carbohydrates except what you find in vegetables.

Mark Lindquist: Do they not make a kibble based food that has no carbohydrates.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And no, there's no such thing? Yeah, well, I mean, there are the raw nibs that are it's just freeze dried raw. You can get freeze dried raw. But the definition kind of of kibble is it's something that's extruded with a, you know, some kind of medium, like a a wheat or a corn or a potato or something or some, some they do have grain free, but it's legumes, peas, things like that.

Mark Lindquist: So is that what made this study interesting? I mean, is this why the study was done and why it was published or were what was the reason they did the study?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, they wanted to know. And, you know, and it was a great study because as far as I could tell, it was pretty straightforward. I mean, they did not overstate their findings. They just said there's a difference. They didn't say which is better or whatever. They said, you know, there's a difference between the gut biome profile of a kibble fed versus a raw fed dog is different now.

As a breeder, I look at it and I look at that that scatterplot a lot and I say different. But look, there are some things I'm not getting into my dogs with this.

Mark Lindquist: So where's the wrong in this?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: I was wrong because I just thought, you know, carbohydrates are bad for dogs. They just don't need carbohydrates.

Mark Lindquist: That from tribal knowledge.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right. Well, it's it's the raw food tribe. Yeah. It's that's the raw food tribe.

Mark Lindquist: Well, you're going to stir up a whole hornet's nest now, aren't you?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, I mean, the thing is, for me, that wasn't a listen, the the intrauterine growth restriction one was more difficult because I had a strong story about bull terriers and type and heads, bull terriers heads. I didn't you know, I really don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to what you feed your dogs. You know, I'm not one of those people, so I have no problem.

I mean, what I do have a dog in the fight about is diversity in gut biome. I do really believe that that's important. So, you know, if I had been an ideologue about feeding raw, which people, you know, they're very funny about food. They're very funny about food. I’m not.

Mark Lindquist: I get it. I mean, I understand why. Why? Well, it's perceived health. I mean, it's doing the best you can for a living thing, so.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right. And and you're judgmental if you don't, right?

Mark Lindquist: Well, I mean, if you're going to follow along on those forums and be a part of that, I you know, you are going to be a believer in that. You're going to support that. You're going to look for the positive aspects of it. None of us are looking as scientists do, with a clear mind to find fault in anything.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: But yes, that's what this podcast is all about.

Mark Lindquist: Oh, I know.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: I'm hoping to encourage people to do that, and it is painfully difficult.

Mark Lindquist: It's an incredible emotional experience.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right? Well, you had this whole construct of yourself as this person who was right, and now you have to rethink everything about that. You know, you did that. You're wrong. But what I'm saying is if you have the more scientific mind, you know, you don't have that construct of right and wrong. You have that construct of being a life student and always learning and being open to it.

Mark Lindquist: Well,

Jane Messineo Lindquist: it becomes easier.

Mark Lindquist: I'm assuming that question number three is going to give us all the answers. You give us the path here on how to not feel that way.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: No, no,

Mark Lindquist: that's not fair.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: It's a process.

Mark Lindquist: It's one of these movies. It ends in just total, despair. And so how this is going to end?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, I hope gosh, I hope you don't feel despair from this because, you know, listen, when I say wrong, it feels, you know, wrong, like, oh, I've had to, you know, I've changed the way I feel about eating carbohydrates. Like I made this movie and I didn't give the puppies oatmeal, and now I do give them resistant starch and, you know, I do these things small amounts, but still I've added it to into my program.

And, you know, it's not like the other way was bad. It wasn't like, oh, you know, I've completely switched now to weaning on to only kibble, you know, that, that I've decided that that is the way to go. I mean which, who knows, someday I may decide that's the way to go. But you know, this is about learning and it's about being better.

And and it is also in a big way about building a community and how wonderful the community around Puppy Culture is because it's this these people that are have we've built into this community contribute incredibly every day in that discussion group. I mean, it's just crazy how much we all learn every day about the differences. And, you know, when you create a truly safe space for people and really, truly do not tolerate any oblique criticism of anybody and keep everything above board and safe, it's amazing the dividends.

Mark Lindquist: What so people what what makes it say people can be wrong when they ask a question. They're free to not be asked to be judged by that.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, first of all, like, if somebody puts up a picture of a puppy and, you know, somebody asks a question, somebody says, well, what I say you took off dew claws. I don't take off dew claws it hurts their tendons. It's like, dude, no, you're out, you know, nobody asked you. The person was asking about what kind of litter should I use?

You know what people this is what people do. I mean, and then, you know, unfortunately, those people come and they kind of sit like a big hand on top of it and just ruin it for everyone else. And, you know, we just don't tolerate that. We don't, you know, and that will be another conversation. But we don't tolerate anybody who doesn't like certain breeds or breed types or mixes or breeds or, you know, whatever else they don't like you know, as long as it's not antithetical to Puppy Culture, like, you know, we're not going to people out there saying, oh, you know, shock collars are okay.

No, we don't. You know, that's just not part of our our ethos. But, you know, we've just created a great community with that.

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Act Three: Early Off Premises Socialization

Sometimes you really were right.  But then the circumstances changed.  How changing your mind about something does not always. mean you were wrong in the first place.

Transcript (ACT THREE)

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Act Three Early Off Premises Socialization.

Mark Lindquist: Number three.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Number three. And this one is why we needed to do this today. Because in our Newborn to New Home course, you're going to start seeing this. And this is different than what we did in Puppy Culture. And that is early off premises. socialization. You know, I think you have to look at this kind of two ways that when we were making Puppy Culture, what I would describe Puppy Culture is the minimum that any breeder should do with a litter to raise behaviorally sound dogs, meaning to say, well, do what's in this program and you won't be handing over a project to your puppy owner.

So you're not going to hand over a puppy that's totally house trained or can walk a mile on a leash, but you'll you'll be handing over a puppy that isn't going to freak out the second the puppy owner puts a collar on it and isn't just a tremendously dirty puppy that they can't house train at all. That isn't totally neophobic and afraid of things.

You know, of its own shadow, I mean, barring any genetic problems. Right. So what we're asking you to do is sort of hand over a blank slate to the puppy owner that the puppy owner and then can take and run with and write on that slate and go to class and do all that work.

We also are telling you to do what has been proven scientifically to be safe. So, you know, all the biosafety precautions that we mention, you know, there's always a risk benefit analysis, okay. Especially with we do early, in-house socialization and there's always a risk benefit analysis and we talk about that. But, you know, putting that aside, you know that you've done your risk benefit analysis of your local risk and you've decided it's worth it to do early in home socialization.

And then once the puppies are vaccinated, we Dr. Herron and Dr. Leal talk about the UC Davis study that if the puppies have had one vaccine by eight weeks at eight weeks old or later and you wait a week, you're safe, you know that they they did the study. Thousands of puppies. Not one of them got parvo. They all went to to puppy class.

So what we put in there is you're safe with what we put in there. And yeah, I mean, it is going to do a decent job of socializing the puppies, even if you wait, you know, if you don't take them off premises and you wait until they have that vaccine on board after eight weeks. So talking about nine weeks, between nine and 12 weeks, if you socialize them.

Okay. So now we're getting to the part where I've modified my position on this, but I should hasten to add I've modified my personal position on this because I feel I have adjusted my risk benefit analysis on this. And what happened was I used a dog from the United Kingdom, so I brought some new genetics into my lines.

And it was a true out cross. And this was, what, three generations ago?

Mark Lindquist: Yes.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And the reason I did it is that all my dogs have always been super confident, our line super confident dogs and really great with people always because that's in our standard. And we, you know, we just don't have any tolerance for a dog that's not flat out friendly to people. But we also had some sharpness, right, with other dogs like, you know, a lot of same sex aggression.

So we wanted to kind of tone that down a bit. And this dog, you know, he was gorgeous and very, very sweet, good with other dogs, very low, same sex aggression. So we brought him in, got a beautiful, beautiful litter. Took the litter to be evaluated with Mary Rimmer, who's evaluated all of my for five, six, seven generations.

I don't even know how many generations it is now. She's evaluated, done puppy evaluations on all my litters. And they were terrified. I mean, there was a air conditioning duct in the ceiling. They were terrified by the sound. They did eventually approach the people, but they crawled. I mean, I'd never seen anything like it, you know?

And, you know, they they came out fine. I mean, they grew up okay. But I'd say we we really made a pretty intense effort to socialize them at that point. And then, you know, the next two generations, you know, we kind of had similar softness, not as dramatic as that, but, you know, just not what I was used to, not what we were used to at all.

And the last litter that we brought to Mary, she said, Well, I mean, do you get them out, you know, before they come here and I said, No, it's the first time. I mean, they're seven weeks old. It's their first trip. I mean, we used to take them for bear testing, but they don't go do that anymore because we have someone coming in, bear testing, being hearing testing, and she's like, well, you know, that bear testing, probably that trip probably really did a lot for them at six weeks.

And you really need to get these puppies out and that these particular puppies genetically are prone to sound sensitivity and softness. You need to get them out. So these puppies that litter was just seven weeks old and I started taking them around. I bought myself a baby stroller, you know, the kind of zip up puppy stroller put them in that so that they couldn't, you know, no other dogs could get to them or sniff them and people couldn't touch them.

And I just start wheeling them around. I took them to Home Depot, I took them to Tractor Supply. I mean, I just took them any place I could take them. And you know what? My God, those puppies were confident. Yeah, I mean, they just fantastic, really. I mean, night and day with waiting to nine weeks, night and day, getting them out at six, seven weeks.

So, you know, I am going to be taking these puppies out this week to places like the bank. I'm going to take them out in their little puppy stroller and get them out. And they're six weeks old. And I guess I'm going to do it. You know, I'm going to. But again, I live in northwestern New Jersey. It's a, you know, all the dogs around here, there are no stray dogs.

Everyone takes good care of their dogs. I'm not going to take them to a place like PetCo where there's going to be a lot of other dogs. I'm not going to take them, you know, there. But I'm definitely I'll take them to the bank. I mean, you know, I'll take them to any place that will let me push them around in their little cart.

I'll take them to a Home Depot.

Mark Lindquist: Why the bank? You never go to the bank.

No, I don't. But, you know, I never really have this situation. I normally am socializing them later. And the other thing I'm going to do is I'm probably going to have some of my friends that where I feel that their house has similar biosafety to mine. And, you know, maybe we'll have Alida come over with her Leonbergers sooner rather than later because again, you know, some of my litters have had more trouble getting over the big dogs and things and that certainly dog you know, neophobia is a big thing in bull terriers.

They're not known to love other dogs. And this last litter that, you know, you can't discount genetics, but the last litter that we had before this, my goodness, they're fantastic. They go to playgroups. They they run with other dogs. I mean, I just they're fantastic. So I do think, you know, I would, look, I'm not going to say I'm changing my mind because I always would think that socializing earlier could have a benefit.

But I'm changing my risk benefit analysis for me here. Now, with this line of puppies, with my genetics that I have, I am going to start socializing them earlier. I can't officially recommend that people do, you know. And even on the Puppy Culture Discussion Group, a lot of times people will put up, you know, videos or pictures of they bring their puppies to like libraries and they have kids or kids schools and they have the kids play with the puppies.

And, you know, I'm not going to change my official stance on we're not going to put that up as part of Puppy Culture because, you know, a lot of people get on that discussion group and they don't even know that there's a film and a program. They just think the discussion group is Puppy Culture. So, you know, if you haven't watched the film and you don't know about biosafety and you haven't listened to the vets talk about appropriate risk benefit analysis, I mean, you can't just take your puppies and just say, Oh, I'm going to take them to a library and just let everyone touch them.

So my official stance is still look, I mean, I cannot officially recommend this, but I'm going to say I definitely am changing my mind about taking my own puppies off premises early.

Mark Lindquist: So can you just kind of elaborate, though, what what is wrong about that whole process? That seems to be pretty straightforward. I mean, what would, you know, what how would you define wrong in any of that?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Wrong about what?

Mark Lindquist: Well, the fact that you didn't take the puppies out, but you notice that they're soft. So it was recommended that you do take them out.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Yeah, well, because I didn't I thought that, you know, listen, nine weeks is enough. Like 9 to 12 weeks is plenty of time, you know, is plenty of time to get them out in the world. You can wait till they're past their,. I always want to wait till they're past their initial or their second fear imprint period and you can get them out and that's enough time.

You can get it done. And I'm saying, yeah, I mean, you can. But I think that there is a tremendous benefit and probably, you know, better to get them out earlier.

Mark Lindquist: So the wrong part of it is someone could come and say, well, hey, you know, used to say no sooner than nine weeks, right?

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, I used to say, you don't need to. That's what I would say is it's really unnecessary and not safe. And now what I would say is, you know, I think there is more benefit to it than I had thought there was. And I can't say that it's safe. I cannot say that it's safe. But because I don't have a study.

Right. We have a study. We have the UC Davis study. So we know it's safe to take them out at nine weeks after they've had one vaccine. Correct. But or I should say, we know statistically it's safe. You know, statistics show that it's relatively safe. There's always going to be some puppy who's a non responder to a vaccine that gets parvo.

I mean, it can happen, but we don't have any science to say it's safe or what the safe parameters are for taking out a six week old puppy. You know, I would wait till six weeks for my puppies because I want to be well past the initial fear imprint period. But, you know, I'll be taking these puppies around.

I will be taking them around. I'm going to put them in a little, I bought a stroller a puppy stroller. So they'll be in that, but I'll be taking them around.

Mark Lindquist: It's a cute stroller, I have to admit.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: It's a very cute stroller. Mm hmm.

Mark Lindquist: Well, I think that I you know, I think that's a pretty good explanation. I think of what you're trying to tell people about. I guess embracing wrong, I guess, is what you're trying to come across to people.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Right, well, because I've you know, I had experience. I felt one way based on the information I had at the time, and I got more information. Listen, another thing and I'll just throw it out here is the whole COVID experience has taught us a lot. Now, I won't say this doesn't come under the umbrella of being wrong, but similarly, when it comes to socialization, you know, it was a frequent thing that people would write into Puppy Culture, not frequent, but from time to time, people right into Puppy Culture.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: And so, you know, I did all Puppy Culture. I kept them until ten weeks and then I place them the puppy owner and now the puppy six months. And he's afraid of something, you know, the puppy hides behind their legs or whatever. And, you know, you're like, well, what did the puppy owner do with them? I don't know.

You know, we really don't know how much socialization or getting the puppy out after the close of the critical socialization period. We really don't know how much difference that made in until COVID, and now we know. We know that, we know that doing socialization during the critical socialization period up until 12 weeks is sort of like a card to it's like a pass card to go to the next level, right?

You don't get stuck in behavioral mod boot camp. You know, you're again, you're handing the puppy owner a blank slate. It's like, okay, we've done what we have to do up to this point. now, you can just carry on, keep socializing, keep going, keep having new experiences, keep training, and it will be smooth it will be clear sailing for you.

You'll be able to go straight through, but you have to keep it up. But with COVID, we had the experience of alright, we went straight to 12 weeks and then boom, cut it off. Now, you know, we have Alana literally 12 weeks, that's when her lockdown, that's when lockdown came. So that puppy was socialized normally right up to 12 weeks.

And then like an iron curtain, it fell down and she was locked up until she was nine months old. And when she was nine months old, before she could get to a handling class and she just about came unhinged. Yeah. And, you know, frankly, the effects of that are there. And, you know, I mean, it's a she's a behavioral project.

I mean, she's an adorable dog. I mean, she's sweet, but we can't even show her at an all breed show because she's only ever seen Bull Terriers. And, you know, she just she comes unhinged. So and there's a lot of stories like that. So I think, you know, what we've learned is it's not that what we do in the first 12 weeks doesn't matter.

You have to do that. You do have to do all that stuff in the first 12 weeks. But what we've learned is you also do have to continue you have to continue with it.

Mark Lindquist: So how do you wrap all this up? What do you what do you tell everybody? What is the what is the thing to tell everybody? What's the short nugget that we walk away from all this, that being wrong is okay.

Jane Messineo Lindquist: Well, I just think next time you got a piece of information and you think it's wrong that it conflicts with what you think is right, you just take a minute. Take a beat, check yourself and say, is this maybe an opportunity? Could I possibly grow with this information?

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