Interview With Jean Donaldson: How To Be a Smart Dog Training Consumer

8/8/2024

This week, my guest, Jean Donaldson, chats with us about how to be a smart dog training consumer.

We delve into both practical and ethical questions when it comes to finding a puppy class, and Jean shares the answers to her three questions you should ask any dog trainer:

What exactly will happen if my dog gets it right?
What exactly will happen if my dog gets it wrong?
Are there less invasive/aversive alternatives to what you propose?

Listen wherever you get your podcasts, and subscribe so you never miss an episode!

To read the transcript for this episode, click the link below.

Episode Transcript

Jane Messineo Lindquist
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist, welcome to Madcap Radio.

Today it is my extreme pleasure to be joined by Jean Donaldson. Hi, Jean. How are you?

Jean Donaldson
Hi, Jane. I'm very pleased to be here. Long time no see.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Long time no see. Most of my followers are going to be familiar with you from Puppy Culture, from the resource guarding section, which I have to say to this day, I feel that one section alone has probably made a bigger difference in more lives of more puppies than any other single section of that course. So thank you for that.

Jean Donaldson
I love everything about Puppy Culture and I felt really honored to be part of it and I'm just so excited that the people who watch it are going to be doing anti resource guarding prevention on their puppies.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
It's great. We're going to talk a little bit more about that. But I just want to introduce you, your other side to people that might not already know, the famous Jane Donaldson, because she's a prolific writer and teacher. She is the founder of the Academy for Dog Trainers 25 years now, and she's teaching courses now at Great Courses, Dog Training 101 she has up there, which I did take a peek. And boy, it has gotten great reviews.

And now she's launching short form courses in the academy for dog trainers. I want to just, that out of the way because that's your sort of bona fides, right? I want to add a personal note to who you are and why I love you so much. You have a quality of staying above the fray when it comes to the dog training blogosphere, which I appreciate very much.

And you also have an ability to cut to the chase incredibly efficiently. Which brings us to why I invited you to be with us today.

I'm working on a booklet to help puppy owners find a good puppy course or a safe puppy course. More to the point and I came across, I'm working with Lili Chin, and I came across this infographic that you done with her, which I just thought was absolutely brilliant and I'm going to read it and then you are going to talk to me about it and it says;

Be a smart dog training consumer. Ask what exactly will happen to my dog if he gets it right? What exactly will happen to my dog if he gets it wrong? Are there less invasive or aversive alternatives to what you propose? Really in three questions. I'd like you to talk to our listeners about what kind of possible answers they could hear to those questions and what the significance of those answers are.

Jean Donaldson
Really important because it is still the case that dog training is not regulated. It's not regulated in this country. And there are many other jurisdictions worldwide where there is not any regulation. Anybody can hang out a shingle and do anything, call themselves a dog trainer, take money for hire. And that is a really alarming state of affairs. Now, you talked about sort of there being rather a fray in the blogosphere.

There's also a fray among dog training professionals, people who offering courses and behavior services insofar as their websites may not be crystal clear about exactly how they're going to train. They may use all kinds of kind of obfuscating language. You know, we're going to use leadership and pack dynamics and and energy and all this kind of stuff. And then if you're somebody who's trying to figure out, is this a good fit for me, it's not very concrete, is it what do you mean energy?

What do you mean, leadership? You know what exactly is going to happen here? And so what we encourage people to get is concrete answers. What's going to happen to your dog in the physical world? What literally is going to happen to him when he gets it right. So is he going to get praised? Is he going to just be told he's good?

Is it going to get padded? Is he going to get food? Is it going to get toys? What combination of those is he going to get exactly? Second, when he gets it wrong and this is where the kind of, you know, the watershed is. So if the dog gets a wrong response, what's going to happen to him? Is it just that he's not going to be rewarded?

Is he going to have a timeout? Is he going to lose, you know, access to something or something physical going to happen to him? Is he going to get corrected? And if so, how is he going to have his ear cut off? Is he going to have a little chain, you know, that, you know, grabbed on his his neck?

Is there going to be electric shock involved? Are they going to call it something else? You want to find out in really kind of granular detail in the physical world what exactly is going to happen and then ask the person if they're saying something like, well, he's going to get just, you know, through e-collar stimulation. What exactly dig a little deeper, you know, an electric shock, you know, in others.

So what what is in the situation out there is that people who are still using these kinds of devices to train dogs are increasingly aware that the demand for that is falling, that people are increasingly aware that you can train entirely with rewards and reward removal, and that it works like a charm. It's totally effective. Big, big stack of research papers growing every year that this is the way to do it doesn't have the side effect profile.

And so those trainers who elect to train with electric shock and with prong collars and with any kind of special collar or with poking dogs and kicking dogs or intimidating dogs, they're aware that their market share is in jeopardy. And so they ‘ve, they've relied and they've resorted to increasingly obfuscating language and kind of trying to sugarcoat what it is. They don't want to say they don't want to call a spade a spade.

And so for consumers who don't want to train this way, the onus is on the smart shopper to ask the questions and dig. And if they say, well I am, I use these e-collar stimulation, then ask the question, is there anything less invasive, alternative wise and they and if that person answers no, this is the only way that can be done and the only way that's going to work, walk away.

Because what they're saying is just not true.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Would you not say that if someone says we use e-collar stimulation, I mean, would you even really go to question three? Would you be like, oh, have a nice day, I'll see you?

Jean Donaldson
That's a good point. Like, Yeah, if it were me, I would certainly counsel people, given what we now know, that that's not a good answer. And it probably would be grounds to to leave right away, but you could sort of, you know, certainly, you know, ask them and see if they come up with, you know, just for curiosity sake, do they think this did they know that this is invasive?

And because that's sort of an extra strike against him, if they're not even aware that this is invasive, that they say, well, it's not invasive at all. So what basically they're saying to you is that electric shock is not an invasive way to teach a living being.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Mmmm. You know, it's interesting. I think of it as sort of like a cascade, right? It's almost like, and there's some questions like one. Okay. There are some answers that I think of as being sort of equivocal, like, okay, tell me a little more like if the dog doesn't get it right, we're going to show him. What do you mean by show him? Like that could be we're going to lure which to me, I'm not a big lurer, but it's not going to hurt the dog. Or it could mean we're going to give him a correction. We're going to compel him. We're going to push on his rear end. And then these things, you know, that we don't think of as mean, you know, punishing.

But, you know, they're aversive. And it shows also a weakness in the skill set of the trainer. So these are the kinds of, if you had to list some of these sort of code words that are kind of like what you what I would call yellow words, that you're like, okay, tell me a little bit more about that.

Like what would be some of those kinds of words?

Jean Donaldson
I love how you framed that, and I love that you brought up that particular one, which is showing the dog, right? What do you mean, showing the dog? Another one would be correct. What do you mean by correcting the dog? What happens in the physical world? How are you going to correct him exactly with your body or with some tool or with some some physical event?

Another one would be energy. Beware the word energy. Beware anything to do with invoking pack dynamics, anything to do with dogs as pack animals, and then they need leadership and they need, you know, a desperate or they need direction. That is all. Not only is it antiquated, but as you say, it could be code for something very harsh.

It could be code for strangulation or, you know, kicking the dog or scaring the dog or shocking the dog. That's another word to be careful of. Anything that talks about natural, you know, in this day and age, if you want to sell anything to anybody, the word natural is a word to bring in. But in dog training, usually it's sort of it's a bit murky, isn't it?

What exactly do you mean? You're going to do something that is natural. Words like clear. We're going to be clear to the dog. Now. Are you going to be clear to the dog? So whatever they come up with, if it doesn't describe physical events, dig, keep digging. And I love how you use the word yellow language. I mean, there are sort of a lot of words like that.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Right? I think, you know, that's the difficult part. And it's interesting because we have not compared notes before having this conversation. But I'm telling you, we're on the same page with this where I'm a dog breeder. Okay. So I'm sending these people out into the world with their little puppy and I do help them find a trainer. But sometimes, you know, life is long.

They can get another trainer and not ask me or think, Oh, wow, I couldn't get in that class. I'll just this one sounds good. And when I look at these dog trainers websites, I see what you see, which is that they figured out that corrections, shock collars, all these things are not, you know, punishment like people don't want that.

They want positive, they want light. And even, I mean, some well-known chains that are heavy correction, you know, like dog training franchises, they have all over the front of their website, We don't we never punish dogs. We don't do any of that. Like, my goodness, that's all you do. So I think, you know, the yellow words are the important ones that you want to keep digging.

So let's see, what do we have so far if if you ask them what will happen if my dog what was was it get it gets it right. Right. And what would be some of the things that we definitely would be like, okay, you know, I'm good with that. Give me three things. I'm okay with that.

Jean Donaldson
Food. And really generous and liberal use of food and training is a flag of a good trainer. It is a very strong universal motivator with an entirely positive side effect profile. Works on virtually any being that's not sick or dead and is powerful and is very easy to dispense. So it's a really good, so anybody who says that that's a very much a check in their favor.

If they talk about praise and patting, I always say that's kind of neither here nor there. Some dogs like praise, some dogs don't care. Patting some dogs like it, some dogs don't. So that's one that is probably neither here nor there.

And then toys and play toys and play, I think are really useful in training. And for certain breeds of dog, some of your drivey dogs, your border collies in your, you know, certain terriers and some of your Malinois was it's one they're going to work all day long for toys but the dogs who won't it's not sort of you know, it's not a flaw in their character if they don't work for toys.

So really what we want to do is we want to use what works and that the dog will work for, the dog finds intrinsically valuable. And so, you know, I hear I don't know if I can come up with a third. I mean, it really is sort of both of the big three, if anybody sort of tries to say that, you know, we're using ... I saw a dog trainer website they were talking about basically electric shock and talking about it being reinforcing. And it was really kind of scary, the kind of Orwellian doublespeak that they were doing, but that somehow they're using it in a positive manner. You know, it really defies belief. But people will fall for this stuff.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Okay, Agreed. So now let's go to yellow words. I mean, showing was one of them. You know, we're going to show the dog what to do. You got to know what they mean by show, because show could be lure, which is fine. And for people that don't know, that would mean like if you want to get the dog to sit you, you take a cookie and you put it in from the dog's nose and you lift it up and you lure the dog into a sit.

But it could also mean I'm going to take the leash and jerk it tight on the neck, straight up and slam my hand on the dog's butt and make it sick. I mean, those are both could be show, obviously. The second one being one. We don't want to go to that dog trainer in the first one we do.

So that's one. Let's can we think of two more yellows? Yeah.

Jean Donaldson
Yes. Showing the dog is definitely a red flag. Showing the dog tends to be vague, like you say, could be good news. It could be that we're going to help the dog get it right next time in a noninvasive manner. Or it could be that we're going to be kind of, you know, pushing him around or jerking him up or pulling up on a collar, cutting off his ear and so on.

Anything to do with the word correction or correct, correction or correcting the dog, or.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Wouldn't you say that would be more of a red? I mean, if we're going to go green, yellow, red.

Jean Donaldson
Really I think that it could be just that we're going to say to the dog, you know, I know, try again. You know, that that was we're just like, you know, occasionally it's a it's language. It you still see it is one of those sort of, you know, weasel words that generally speaking, you and I, because we're in the business, we know that correction tends to mean leash correction or some means of intimidating or hurting the dog to show him that he was wrong.

But but be careful because, you know, it is it's a word that you'll still see out there a fair amount. You'll see words in front of it. So you might see a modifier in front of it, something like appropriate corrections or gentle correction.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Oh, yeah.

Jean Donaldson
Natural corrections. You know, you'll see words like that which it, has soften it up a little bit. But beware, ask what do you mean what physically is going to happen if you see that? And then the third thing I would be really careful about is anything to do with energy leadership, pack dynamics. We're going to be the leader of the pack.

We're going to, you know, make sure he understands dogs feel most confident and they feel most secure when they know their place in the hierarchy. This kind of gobbledygook language, which not only is inaccurate from a scientific point of view, it's inaccurate, but it usually is code for the way we're going to show the dog. What his place in the hierarchy is, is by scaring the crap out of him.

If he does something we don't like.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Right. But it also, you know, interestingly, I have seen a leadership pack in some positive dog trainers also because it's not you know, it's something that the puppy owner sometimes, I think they feel the puppy owners can understand it, like that you're going to I'm going to teach you to be your puppies leader and leader. I mean.

Jean Donaldson
They may very well understand if I say, you know, your puppy is a is a you know, a matrix dot printer, you know, but it's inaccurate. It's not true.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
It's not true. But I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't it's not a red word like code red for me is correction. If they say correction, No, I mean ...

Jean Donaldson
That's why I would put, you know, energy leadership in packs in yellow where you want to check is somebody just throwing on that language because they don't know any better. And in fact, they're going to train using food and using play and they're going to do so competently. If so, all is well. But if they're talking about, you know, pack dynamics and leadership and so on, and what they mean by that is they're going to hammer the dog, going to scare the dog.

They're going to, you know, cut off his ear electrically, shock him, big prongs in his neck and so on. Then run.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Okay. So is but I have another question for you. But before we move on, would you say that sort of covers it for puppy owners as far as what if the dog gets it right? What if it gets it wrong? Yeah.

Jean Donaldson
The other thing I would just add in, this may be too far outside the bounds of what we're trying to talk about, but if they're hunting for puppy classes to find puppy classes that allow free play, that's something that's terrifically important. There was a trend a couple of years ago where just somebody in a, you know, kind of clickbait fashion were trying to say, we know what in puppy classes we should be teaching puppies to calm and do down stays and lie down and be calm and control.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Rather than engaging in species normal interactions and learning to become social. And I think that luckily that fad has passed and it flies in the face of everything we know about sensitive periods and socialization. So I would, I would caution people away from puppy classes that say free play is somehow dangerous. Or it teaches dogs to be excited or teachers don't speak over, socialize, etc. There's just no such thing.

I mean that that is dangerous malpractice.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Interesting I have not seen that. But that's a good point. What I would add to that, though, is that, a flag for me is when you have a puppy class where they let five month old puppies into a puppy group, To me, free play is for up to 12 weeks, right? Maybe 14 for some, 16 for some very neotenous breeds.

But, and I believe in playgroups for dogs but it should really be a dyad, right? Once they get over 12 weeks old, it should be two puppies that are well-suited to each other. They're just that's the possibility of real aggression.

Jean Donaldson
That’s a really good point, that in puppy classes you want to have age, you want to have peer to peer play. There's a huge difference between a three month old and a five month old dog. And so, yes, you want to make sure that that the puppy class is puppies that are in the same age group.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Right. And the free play is through.

Jean Donaldson
Among age mates. Yes.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
So them. Okay. So then we get to, is there a less invasive way, the question three which you know, by the time you get to question three, I mean you've eliminated a lot of people, right?

Jean Donaldson
That's a true fact. You know, it is. You have it's just that, you know, when you're trying to shop for anything. So if you're you know, you've been offered your options for cancer treatment, you're being offered your options for a surgery. You know, you always want to just ask, you know, what are the alternatives? What else can I do?

Is there any other alternative to this? And so if somebody offers you a training intervention and look at something that's a little bit ambiguous so they talk about rather than, you know, talking about electrically shocking your puppy, they're talking about, you know, pushing down on his rear or, you know, holding him gently in place and so on. You know, I think that question can then bring out, you know, so they say whether the trainers competent they think, well, yeah, well we can also, you know, lure him in a position or wait for him to do what we want or help him in this manner to get it right. That can sometimes, you know, prompt the trainer away from you if they have more things in their bag of tricks. Now that does beg the question, as you point out, that if the trainer has those available to them, why are they not using that as their first line of defense?

Why are they not doing the least invasive thing right out of the gate? And so I take your point.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
It's well, it's interesting because you and I did have this conversation offline earlier where I had raised this question in the Puppy Culture discussion group. And a lot of people, surprisingly, or maybe not so surprisingly, gave me a little bit of pushback about it and said, well, listen, I mean, some dog some dog trainers that use shock collars like on their competition dogs are really better puppy trainers.

You know, they don't use shock collars on on puppies and they're better puppy trainers than a lot of pure positive. And, you know, my answer is yes, I do believe that. I mean, just because you use aversive does not make you an incompetent doesn't mean that you couldn't be great with a clicker and and food. The difference for me as a breeder is when I send my puppy owner out into the world, if they go to someone who has that on the table, you know, the shock collar is on the table, the pinch collar is on the table.

There is a possibility that that will at some point be suggested to my puppy owner. If I go to a pet professional, it's you know, which there if anything I mean ideologically extremely the other way. I know that nothing is going to happen to my puppy. I mean, if I send them to one of Jean's trainers, I know that nothing is going to be that that's not on the table for my puppy.

So it's not even a question of competency. It's a question of keeping your puppy safe. Which brings me to my next question, which is why does it matter so much? Why does it matter so much that we find these trainers that are pure positive, that don't use any aversive or punishment on puppies?

Jean Donaldson
The great question, what's one that we don't we sort of take for granted that we know the answer because we do, right? I mean, the answers really twofold. One is basically basic ethics, which is, you know, animal welfare wise, if you can achieve an outcome without scaring and hurting your your what you call your best friend, you're you're morally obligated to do so.

And the second has to do with the side effect profile. So even if you don't care about the welfare of your dog, if you elect aversive methods, they're well documented to carry the side effect of fear. There are a lot of things in dog training that we, you know, we you know, that we despise and we we don't like it when dogs, you know, run in the track.

We don't want dogs to bark. We don't want dogs to pee in the house and so on in terms of ease of modification. So how readily we can fix a problem. Those things for a competent dog trainer are a piece of cake. Fear, on the other hand, is there's a saying in animal behavior which is fear is the easiest thing to install and the hardest thing to get rid of so term.

And so if you by your very training intervention, install fear. So let's say you were trying to get the puppy to lie down or stay or come on called or whatever if you've traded not say you achieve that and you've traded that off for a fear disorder. Now the puppy's a little bit more anxious than he was and he grows up and now he's got an anxiety issue that is pretty frank malpractice.

You, you've it's a very poor tradeoff. And so because of the risk of fear, which is, you know, if you think about it, it's pretty intuitive that if you you know, if you hurt and scare animals, they're going to become afraid. And it does happen. It happens more often than we'd like to admit that that is something which we want to be very sober about.

And so as getting back to your competence question, for sure, there are incompetent trainers on both sides of the philosophical divide. There are some trainers who are completely positive, but they're not very competent. There's some trainers who are very harsh in their methods who may be competent or incompetent. And certainly, you know, competencies are very valid discussion to have.

However, that doesn't make it okay to electrically shock your dog. You know, it's just, you know, it makes you wonder. I mean, I do I mean, you know, I wonder about a lot of things. One thing that keeps me up at night is why on earth these people, why on earth are they shocking their dog? They think it's.

But do they think it's benign? Do they know it's not benign, but do it anyway? And either way you think about that, they think it's okay to do that. They think it you know, it's fine or they think it's not harmful. It's, you know, whether they do it with good timing or not is kind of, you know, beside the point, you know.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Well, it's interesting. Why would they do that? My listeners are probably tired of hearing about this study, but I'm just going to quote it again. There was a study of guide dogs and they found a high correlation between dog and human aggression and the dog being frightened by another dog or a person in the first year of its life.

So it you know, it doesn't take brain surgery to realize if you're if you are taking your dog to a class where there is any possibility that any kind of aversive or frightening thing is going to be done to the dog, you know, you could be trading off dog and human aggression down the line and no pet owner ever returned a dog or sent it to the shelter because it didn't know how to sit.

But they do it every day because it's human aggressive or dog aggressive. So there's your answer. Training is overrated, frankly. I mean, it's important because it allows you to take your dog for a walk. It's leash run. But when it comes to owner satisfaction, lack of fear, lack of aggression, those are your determinative factors and your positive trainer, an incompetent, positive trainer.

The worst thing that's going to happen is your dog doesn't learn how to walk on leash. An incompetent or heavy handed or even just a good punishment trainer who puts a shock collar or a pinch collar on a puppy and that puppy is sensitive and has a frightening experience. I mean, there's just no question. I mean, and again, I'm not trying to jump in the ethical fray because I feel like when you know, as a breeder, I don't even need to get there.

I just need to keep my puppy safe. And, you know, whether it's ethical or not, listen, you do you it's you are in a different place, right, Because you're a professional dog trainer by trade. That's what you do. Number one, you're out to change the world and God bless you. But I you know, I'm just trying to keep my puppy safe here.

I mean, at least that's the hat that I'm wearing here.

Jean Donaldson
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Entirely. Yes. I could not agree more. I mean, I think me competence standards worry me a great deal. Electrically shocking puppies is, you think it would be so obvious, you know, I mean, if you found out that the zoo in your city was electrically shocking baby giraffes. Can you imagine the picket line? Imagine that. The scandal on the news there would you know, it would be just like that would be a scandal, the century.

And yet we do it to dogs.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Yeah, but not at the baby giraffe was in their backyard eating their tree. They'd be like, Oh, shock the baby giraffe. I mean people. Yeah, yeah. People, people I think are inordinately, well, okay, now we're getting onto another topic, which I but I think people are very concerned with quote results unquote. Right. And the problem is that the the shock collar crew let's just say the the that sort of franchise dog training, punish them, teach them to stay on a platform, impress people, board and train, you know, all those people.

They're winning in a sense, because they've written the rules and they've said, here's your results. Your results are that you can walk the dog off leash next to a five lane highway. And it's like, no, that is not the result that you want. The result you want is a dog that is not aggressive and not fearful. Right. And we can deliver that.

Jean Donaldson
We can.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Your dog does not need to stay on a platform for an hour.

Jean Donaldson
You know, and I think that sort of results at all costs. You know, and look at this and control, control. Sort of in other words, the yardstick of a good outcome was I've got control of this dog. It's very kind of mid-century, you know, 19, forties, fifties, whereas, you know, you know, we got control of the dog and that is the mark of a responsible owner.

I think now, I mean, the publication, you know, Zazie Todd, she’s an Academy grad and a really good writer. She's written a few books. One of them is called Wag. That was her first book. It was basically all the science of of keeping dogs happy and welfare and so on. And the mark of a good title, is a bestseller.

You know, I you know, I think in 1950 or even 1970, if you said to somebody, you know what, what's the mark of a good dog owner, a good dog guardian would have said, you know, that they've got control of their dog and the dog does, as he's told and so on. Dog is obedient. Now, I think in the 21st century it would be, are you doing a good job?

You being good steward? I mean, is your dog happy? Is your dog feeling safe? Is he sort of is he fitting in well to human society and so on that that is more the yardstick now, and less this sort of kind of throwback control control stuff, that that might be partly why these trainers are losing market share and will continue to do so, that the world is changing, that, you know, every year that goes by somebody from, you know, the nine those days is dying and then somebody who's younger and has been brought up in a different way is now, you know, among the pet owning public.

And so I think that this this trend is going to continue, that people people care about whether their dogs are happy. They care about whether the dogs are afraid. Nobody wants their dog to be afraid anymore. Yeah, I think it used to be sort of the price that you paid that there are these to call it respect. Now it's like if you said, I just want my dog to respect me, say, well, the way you get your dog respect is to be kind rather than that you're going to, you know, threaten him.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Well, this is great. Listen, I want to close and I want to thank you very much. And I want to thank you really for everything over the years, because when I was making Puppy Culture, I found out that there are two kinds of people in this world. There are the resource guarders and there are the collaborators, and you are definitely not a resource guarder, you’re a collaborator.

And, you know, I just appreciate the generosity of your time and your help and appearing in Puppy Culture. You've helped thousands, thousands and thousands of people.

Jean Donaldson
I would do anything for you. I would take a bullet for you. Jane. You know.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
You're sweet. Okay, So again, Academy for Dog Trainers, we're excited. There's going to be if you want to become a dog trainer, people ask me all the time and I do recommend your academy if people are interested in a certification and now exciting short courses. If you want to dip your toe in and get addicted to Jean and then sign up for her, her full course.

And tell me again the website. It's master classes.

Jean Donaldson
Yeah, the Great Courses. So the Great...

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Courses.

Jean Donaldson
They have like courses on everything, history and geography and space and whatever. Now they've got a course on dog training. So if somebody is doesn't want to become a professional dog trainer, but they want a kind of a little deeper dive into dog training than they will get at a class, the dog training 101 is at the Great Courses and it goes on sale.

I mean, the Great Courses, they tend to be fantastically expensive, but, but they go on sale regularly with really deep discounts. So if people wait for a sale, don't get one right.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
Well, thanks again, Jean.

Jean Donaldson
You're very welcome.

Jane Messineo Lindquist
If you like this podcast, you'll love our new Be Your Puppies Advocate booklet, teaching puppy owners how to know what's right and stand up for it. Available at puppyculture.com.

Well, that's all for this time. Thanks for listening. Bye bye.